Rasika Dugal on Purpose, Growth & Taking the Leap

0:02: It's only retrospectively that you can possibly think that this might have led to this. 
0:08: But the exact decision of I want to be an actor and why that came about or when exactly that came about is not something which is clear to me even now. 
0:17: There was no precedence of that in my family and no precedence of that in my parents' social circle either.
0:24: You know they say the most powerful performances aren't always the loudest. 
0:29: But the ones you feel long after the screen fades to black is a powerful performance. 
0:36: And today's guest is someone who has mastered that quiet intensity.
0:39: From compelling performances across film and series to becoming a face of deeply nuanced storytelling, her journey is anything but conventional. 
0:48: Also, she's progressed from accidental beginnings to conscious purpose while keeping the spirit of Be All You Can alive throughout. 
0:58: I'm Rishi K. I'm really excited to be hosting this special series of the podcast Be All You Can.
1:03: She's going to tell us more about her journey today. 
1:06: Rasika, how wonderful to see you. How are you? 
1:10: Always lovely to see you and thank you for that wonderful introduction.
1:13: All right, let's go straight back to what I would say is a very, very interesting past. 
1:22: They call it jam pot in lots of lots of parts of this world. 
1:27: But Jamshedpur is just such a wonderful place to grow up.
1:31: I mean, tell me about those days. 
1:33: I mean, there are so many actors now coming out of there saying, wow, you know, this is the place where Imtiaz Ali and Rasika Duggal have come and made fortune for themselves. 
1:44: And you indeed are an inspiration to the next generation.
1:48: So those heady days of starting off in Jamshedpur, what are they like? 
1:53: Oh, well, I always remember my Jamshedpur childhood as a very secure one, especially because you knew everybody around you. 
2:02: You know, the friends you had in school were the same friends you met when you came home and the same friends you met at the club and your parents were friends with each other. 
2:11: So it was always it's a it's a close knit community.
2:16: And anywhere you go, you feel like, you know, people around you. 
2:20: So it's never there's never unknown territory. 
2:24: Also, the kind of place that allows you to have an idyllic afternoon.
2:28: Most of my afternoons, I remember doing nothing, actually, you know. 
2:31: But yes, that's how I remember it. 
2:34: Really the time where I had time off.
2:38: And I don't remember having time off ever since I left Jamshedpur. 
2:44: You know, one of the things about the wonder years when we're growing up, our age of adolescence, as it were, is our sense of observation and empathy is really without us even knowing is finely tuned. 
2:58: And because Jamshedpur is the kind of place it is, would you say that your sense of observation, empathy, storytelling without you even knowing it kind of got enhanced or was finely tuned because you grew up in a place like that? 
3:14: I think the only thing that I can sort of place it to is that because it was my parents are very social, you know.
3:22: So as a as a child, while there was no conscious sort of cultural upbringing, because my parents were not tuned to that. 
3:31: It was not that I was surrounded by books all the time or I was told to watch certain kinds of movies. 
3:37: It was basically the run of the mill stuff that people my age in a small town.
3:41: My viewing on the big screen was limited to things that the club could get. 
3:45: And very often that used to be films that would come much later. 
3:50: I remember there used to be screenings on Tuesdays and Fridays.
3:53: It was actually very beautiful because it was almost a cinema parodies experience because this was an open air theatre. 
4:01: So that's where I usually picked up my cinema from. 
4:04: But there was no sort of conscious design by my parents to to sort of educate me in a particular way as far as cinema or arts was concerned.
4:15: So I pretty much picked up things along the way. 
4:19: And I think my real sort of realisation of wanting to be a performer came much, much later. 
4:26: I was always socially very conscious.
4:30: But but there's a deep consciousness of how you are and what people around you are doing. 
4:36: And I didn't sort of enjoy that sort of thing at all while growing up. 
4:40: But I have to say that I think it did help me as an actor because, you know, when you walk into the room, 
4:46: you're already tuned into sort of figuring what everybody else wants, needs, is doing, what they expect of you, etc., etc.
4:56: So you're kind of equipped to to analyse that information almost immediately. 
5:04: Was there really a precedent in your family for doing what you're doing today? 
5:08: I mean, you're one of the most respected actors in the country. 
5:12: But the the transformative decision of joining acting or wanting to be an actor.
5:20: Can you explain it? No. 
5:25: Most transformative decisions in life can't be explained. 
5:29: That's the way it is.And that is the beauty of it, 
5:32: because it's only retrospectively that you can possibly think that this might have led to this. 
5:38: But the exact decision of I want to be an actor and why that came about or when exactly that came about is not something which is clear to me even now. 
5:47: There was no no precedence of that in my family and no precedence of that in my parents social circle either.
5:54: OK, so then you join FTII and one of your mentors, rightfully so, is the great Nasiruddin Shah. 
6:01: And you have described him as that rare combination of great actors, also a very good teacher. 
6:07: My question to you is the lessons that you learned from him that go beyond acting even today.
6:13: Something that you've picked up that has just become one of your bylines, a few of your bylines in life. 
6:20: I think everything that I know about performance today is because of what I learned at the Film Institute 
6:27: and because of the very strong foundation that I had in the classes with Nasir. 
6:35: Because he's one of those teachers who equips you with the tools to understand everything else that's going to come at you later or come to you later.
6:46: You know, and that kind of foundation is absolutely unmatchable. 
6:50: And sometimes I really think back and I wonder what I would have done had I not known it. 
6:54: But there are a few very basic things that he had taught us.
6:59: Some of them are harder to explain if you're not a performer. 
7:03: But one thing that one golden rule, which I will never, never forget, and I have never broken that rule, is you never tell your co-actor what to do. 
7:14: And you have to extend that to the point that you, supposing, giving you an example, you and I have sat and rehearsed the scene a hundred times.
7:23: I've given line A, you've given line B, I've given line C, you've given line D. 
7:28: For some reason, when we are on take, you forget or you choose to or you intentionally skip line B. 
7:35: You choose to not say it. I will not stop and say, hey, you've forgotten your line. 
7:41: No, I will accept your silence and respond to that.
7:44: Or I will accept whatever you choose to put line D in place of line B. 
7:48: I will accept that and I will play to that. And that's something that seems very simple. 
7:56: You'll be amazed at how difficult it is to implement and you'll be amazed at how many people don't do it.
8:03: So, Rasika is working as a research assistant on a gender and public space project. 
8:09: And then you spot a newspaper advertisement saying FTII was restarting their acting course. 
8:17: And that's when you join or you apply.Right? Is that a true life moment? 
8:23: Okay. Now, here's my question. Were you a curious child? Were you a curious teen? 
8:29: Because I'm thinking if you noticed, paused and said, why not? 
8:34: Maybe curiosity was very central to why you ultimately ended up being where you are.
8:40: I think, yes, as curious as people are, I think it's not difficult. 
8:46: I think curiosity, as far as I understand it, is pretty innate. 
8:52: You just have to sort of protect yourself from it being destroyed, you know.
8:57: And as you become older, I guess you just have to find a way to nurture it and preserve it, you know. 
9:04: So, yes, I was curious and I was also brave in the sense that I naturally did not like authority and I didn't feel like I had to adhere to it. 
9:19: But it was, I think, a good combination of curiosity and a healthy dislike of authority.
9:28: So, I take it, you said, why not? You know, you gave in to curiosity and you join. 
9:36: You don't really take it seriously as a career choice, but then all around you. 
9:41: And I know people who get into FTII, I mean, most of them have fierce ambitions of either stardom, of pursuing acting.
9:51: Was there a moment that that whim of, let's try this, became a calling? 
9:58: I don't think I can identify a particular moment, but I can say that about six months into this course, 
10:04: I knew this is what I wanted to do for as long as I can help it, you know. 
10:09: I had done other things before. Therefore, I was able to identify this as this feels different, you know.
10:17: I had done fairly different things and none of those kind of fit quite as right as this felt. 
10:26: Because this really felt like I had met something which combined my need to share as well as my shyness to not share it. 
10:40: You know, I felt like the camera captured both of that very beautifully.
10:43: So I really felt sort of connected to this in a way that I hadn't felt with anything else. 
10:51: Okay, I'm going to come to the vagina monologues. 
10:54: I find it remarkable, extraordinary, fascinating that for nine years you stayed with one production.
11:03: It's a sustained relationship with a single piece of work. 
11:07: What did that teach you? I mean, there's depth, there's breadth, there's everything. 
11:12: Nine years with one piece of work, but I want to know learnings from that.
11:17: There's so many because when you've been with a piece of work for a while, it's like, you know, you go through different stages with it, right? 
11:28: There's a complete thrill and excitement to do it at first, which then transforms into a kind of boredom for a while. 
11:35: And then you, if you play through that boredom, then you find something new to do in it. 
11:41: For example, if there was show number 60 of the vagina monologues, by now I should have known it backwards and I should be getting all the applause that I want exactly at the correct places.
11:53: And as a performer, it's very easy to sort of crave that every single time. 
11:58: But you reach a point where you realise that I can only overcome my boredom or something if I reinvent myself within that. 
12:08: And in order to reinvent myself within that, I have to let go of the applause that comes maybe for a bit till I find the other spots where it could be applause worthy, you know, which is more interesting to me, which is actually a great lesson for an actor's career.
12:24: So that's what staying with something long enough teaches you as a performer, you know. 
12:30: Rasika, how important is community? And by community, I don't mean networking. I'm talking about a genuine, creative community.
12:39: I noticed that, you know, there is the vagina monologues experience and then there's also Dastan Goyi, which is the revival of the traditional Urdu Dastan storytelling tradition. 
12:49: And so the importance of community, genuine, creative community to sustaining a purpose for life. 
12:56: Well, extremely, extremely important, but also very difficult to find, you know.
13:03: And it's something that I've constantly struggled with because I've found meaningful, creative collaborations on some projects, but a sustained creative community not for very long, especially because also because of the kind of lives we lead these days. 
13:20: And I'm always full of admiration for Rajat Kapoor and gang, for example, because they've made such incredible stuff over all these years. 
13:29: And recently that comes to mind because that film released recently.
13:35: Everybody loves Saurabh Bhanda. 
13:37: Saurabh Bhanda. I'm constantly impressed with the way Vinay, Rajat, Ranbir, Atul have worked with each other across mediums and for so many years, you know.
13:46: So I don't know what it feels to them personally. 
13:49: I'm also curious about that. 
13:51: But as it seems to me from the outside, this is a great place.
13:56: You know, this is a great group to have and work with each other. 
13:59: You know, I'm going to come to certain parts which have obviously left their mark on me and so many of your fans who've just loved you in these particular parts. 
14:09: Let's start with something that happened a while ago.
14:13: 2011, an experimental black and white indie film. 
14:20: There were people who have seen that performance and are astonished by the layered mature performance that you've given. 
14:26: In fact, Nandita Das has described Rashika Duggal's personality as being, quote unquote, like water.
14:32: You blend in without judgement or conditions. 
14:35: And what a wonderful line that is. 
14:40: Do you think acting at its highest is an act of empathy, of radical empathy? 
14:47: Is my question to you.
14:48: And that's why so many of your characters are so believable. 
14:51: I think acting at its basic is an act of empathy, not at its highest. 
14:56: You know, that's that's the first thing you need.
15:02: And it can't be done without. 
15:05: So I don't see it being done in any other way. 
15:10: What does ethical responsibility mean to you as an artist and where does your craft end and your conscience begin? 
15:19: I don't think there's an end in beginning.
15:21: I think they are intertwined. 
15:23: And you are doing pay money with yourself if you're not paying attention to that. 
15:28: And it's easy to not pay attention to that, especially when your career progresses and the stakes are higher.
15:33: Because I don't think you can create anything special without that. 
15:37: But if it's really not aligning with my, if it has, for example, many sexist jokes, 
15:44: some might call that silly. 
15:46: It might have crossed the threshold for me and might have entered the space of misogyny.
15:53: So, yeah, I don't think you can separate those. 
15:57: All right. 
15:58: Bina Tripathi in Mirzapur, the role that really made you a household name.
16:04: And it's no secret. 
16:05: And you've been very forthcoming about this, saying that you've lived vicariously through Bina because she's so different from what you are. 
16:12: She's just wired very differently.
16:15: My question, and I'd like to segue into it using that thought. 
16:20: What do we learn about ourselves by inhabiting people, by inhabiting people who are nothing like us? 
16:26: So what have you learned about yourself by inhabiting Bina Tripathi? 
16:33: A lot. 
16:34: The process of saying yes to the role has taught me a lot about my own indoctrination into patriarchy.
16:43: My own internalised patriarchy had come to the fore because, for example, when I went to read for this, 
16:51: and I was having conversations with the creative director, Karan Anshuman, for season one. 
16:57: And I read through the scenes and the scenes are potentially very different from what I've ever done before. 
17:03: And I came back home and spoke to your favourite person, Mukul Chadha.
17:07: And he said, I'm a little nervous because I don't know what my father will think. 
17:13: And Mukul Chadha in his infinite wisdom said, why aren't you worried about what your mother will think? 
17:22: So it told me a little bit about myself taking on this role. 
17:26: That somewhere taking on a role like this was because of the physical nature of it.
17:34: And that idea of me was somewhere tied to Izzat. 
17:39: And that Izzat was somewhere tied to my father. 
17:43: And, you know, all of that was very revealing to me about myself.
17:48: When you're playing a psychologically intense role, like the one in Out of Love, 
17:54: how do you protect your own mental and emotional space? 
17:58: Well, to be honest, I don't try to protect. 
18:01: The idea while you're doing the work is to try to not protect. 
18:04: The idea is to be affected by it in every way possible.
18:09: And the preoccupation while you're filming for something is, am I there? 
18:12: Rather than is it carrying me or affecting me or hurting me? 
18:18: You know, I don't know if that's the healthiest way of looking at it. 
18:22: And everybody has their own thing, you know. 
18:24: So the preoccupation is to be affected and be exhilarated or wounded or whatever, you know.
18:32: But today I would, after I finish a project, 
18:37: probably give myself the physical rest and mental rest that I need after I finished filming. 
18:45: Okay, let's move to Delhi Crime. 
18:47: For those of you living under a rock, the first Indian series ever to win the International Emmy.
18:53: There's a couple of questions on Neeti Singh, a fantastic character that you played. 
18:58: Now you have, I remember you telling me when we did the interview for Delhi Crime that 
19:03: you did face the personal weight of playing Neeti Singh in the show. 
19:09: It was disturbing being in it, but you wanted to be disturbed in a way.
19:13: You wanted to remember because you felt all of us should feel guilty about what happened. 
19:19: Because we all did move on in some strange way and we shouldn't have.
19:23: When storytelling becomes a form of social conscience, 
19:28: does the line between an actor and the activist disappear? 
19:33: And in cases like this, does the actor become the activist? 
19:38: Well, I think that as an actor, you're not an activist, you know.
19:45: In my opinion, an activist, activism is a kind of selflessness that I have still not experienced. 
19:55: You know, that's completely different. 
19:59: And it requires a completely different way of being, in my opinion, 
20:03: than what you're doing as an actor on a show.
20:07: Empathy is not difficult at all. 
20:10: And the more I work, the more I realise that, 
20:14: and the more I feel happy about that, because empathy is actually very easy. 
20:18: All right, let's give credit where it's due.
20:21: The change is happening slowly and it's really wonderful. 
20:26: Stellar roles are being written for women of all ages, particularly middle-aged women. 
20:32: These lead parts are not resembling men.
20:35: There is an attempt to explore femininity, to understand the inner life of a woman. 
20:39: So those are wonderful things. 
20:41: But if there's still one thing you'd like to dismantle, 
20:47: a so-called quote-unquote invisible rule about how women are still being written 
20:52: or how women are still being cast in Indian cinema, what would it be? 
20:58: Many of the two things that come to mind today 
21:01: are that many women characters are written like they are the custodians of compassion.
21:10: Many women parts are written as if motherhood is the most fulfilling thing for a woman. 
21:21: Many stories, which are dark, are also about a woman not having a child. 
21:24: I'm tired of reading those.
21:27: There can be other reasons that you feel unfulfilled. 
21:33: So that and I think people don't associate a lightheartedness with women. 
21:40: I don't know why.So women and comedy is very underwritten. 
21:43: Usually you tend to get an opportunity to be the foil to the funny, 
21:49: but not the person carrying the joke. 
21:51: And I would love to see more of that and be in some of that.
21:55: Okay, this is my favourite question of the question list because it's just so me. 
22:01: Now, you know, our generation, which is you, me, Mukul Chadha, all of us, 
22:09: for our generation, rest and recovery was known as a sign of laziness. 
22:14: And it's such a paradox to me that today, you know, Godrej has come to me 
22:17: and asked me to host a podcast about living with purpose.
22:21: The title is Be All You Can. 
22:25: And the key word being be. 
22:28: You know, I think we're just so hardwired, our generation, 
22:31: saying if you're, you know, just resting, looking at the ceiling fan, 
22:35: it's we're being lazy.
22:37: I'm not, I'm still struggling with it. 
22:39: I don't know if you've managed to overcome this and you're able to just be. 
22:42: And you have days where you just look outside the window, 
22:44: stare at the ceiling fan and just be.
22:47: Well, for actors, there are many days that you are just made to be. 
22:52: It's not out of. 
22:53: The hazards of the profession.
22:55: The hazards of the profession. 
22:56: So I've spent significant number of days staring at the ceiling fan 
23:00: when I started out as an actor and being totally uncomfortable with it, 
23:04: not as a choice. 
23:05: What you're asking is that have I been able to make it a choice? 
23:09: No, is the answer.
23:10: But I struggle with it. I realise the importance of it, 
23:13: especially because it's spoken about so much these days in social media. 
23:17: And honestly, you know, you talked a few minutes ago again about 
23:21: being able to constantly improve as an actor.
23:26: And that that's a wonderful thing, that belief in perpetual growth. 
23:30: And at the heart of it, this podcast is about that. 
23:33: And Be All You Can is about that.
23:36: The idea that you should constantly evolve. 
23:38: Now, again, here's the question. 
23:41: Some people improve and evolve and it comes from restlessness.
23:47: Like you are Shah Rukh Khan. 
23:48: He'll say, I'm restless, so I need to evolve. 
23:52: Whereas there are lots of people like you ask the Sadhguru's of this world 
23:55: and they say, oh, you know, I evolve and I improve because of joy.
24:01: So my question to you is, where does the drive to constantly evolve come from? 
24:06: For you, is it is it joy or is it restlessness? 
24:08: I don't think it's a choice. 
24:11: I don't think you can not evolve. 
24:14: If you want to continue to do what you're doing with a certain kind of integrity, 
24:18: you have to evolve.
24:20: So you have to find a way to evolve. 
24:25: And like I went to this reading recently of a conversation with Nandita 
24:32: and Siddharth Mukherjee and he said, you know, there will be times 
24:36: where you where you're stuck and you will feel stuck 
24:41: and you have to innovate your way out. 
24:43: There is no other way.
24:44: And that just ranks so true because there are many sort of situations 
24:49: in your life as an actor where you feel like, okay, this is it. 
24:53: And there's nothing else happening creatively within you. 
24:57: And if you have to, even if you don't desire to have something better 
25:01: than where you are today, to stay where you are, 
25:04: you have to find a way to evolve.
25:06: And there is great joy in it. 
25:09: When you work your way around it, the joy of it is unmatchable. 
25:14: Now, is there something you sacrificed in the pursuit of your craft? 
25:21: And would you do it differently? 
25:23: I think I, when I came from FDI to Bombay, I was, I had a single-minded focus.
25:29: And I, I mean, Mukul and I have this conversation many times 
25:33: where he constantly tells me that he left his banking job 
25:37: and came here and told himself that this was a sabbatical 
25:40: and that he had a plan B. 
25:43: If this would not, if this didn't quite work out, 
25:46: he had other options and he would go back to his banking job. 
25:51: And when I came to Bombay, I did not have a plan B. 
25:54: I didn't want to, even for a minute, entertain that this would not work out. 
26:00: You know, I didn't want to think that way at all.
26:01: And maybe that was delusional, but it was a healthy dose of delusion, 
26:06: which I really believe that if you're an actor, you do need. 
26:09: And you need it throughout your career. 
26:11: So it's good to sort of keep that delusion going.
26:15: Okay. Be All You Can is about people discovering 
26:17: and living their fullest lives, their fullest selves. 
26:21: As you stand at this point in your life and career, 
26:25: what does being the fullest version of Rasika Duggal actually look like to you? 
26:30: If I have to describe it in terms of a visual, 
26:35: I would really say that I think I'm at this point where 
26:40: I'm ready to jump off to see whether it makes me fly 
26:44: or makes me fall and then fly.
26:48: Nice. When you're not on set, 
26:50: what are the things that you find yourself completely immersed in? 
26:52: As in, what does your version of switching off look like? 
26:56: Well, I am very easily immersed in anything that I'm doing. 
27:00: I mean, watching films is, of course, one way to do it.
27:03: I like to have marathon viewing days. 
27:05: And my perfect day is a Sunday where I've worked out 
27:10: and I've had the opportunity to watch two films back to back. 
27:15: That's my perfect day.
27:17: I've recently consciously wanted to get back to a reading habit 
27:24: because I've felt very alone in the last few years without one. 
27:31: I read a couple of books back to back 
27:33: and I'm totally in love with them and those writers 
27:37: and I can't get over them all, to be honest. 
27:40: The last one I read was Kiran Desai's The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny 
27:45: and it is the most beautiful thing I've ever read.
27:49: But let me tell you, I'll say that about a lot of things 
27:50: because I'm so obsessively connected to it when I'm reading it. 
27:55: Creative journeys come with their share of uncertainty. 
27:58: In the early years, how did you deal with setbacks or moments of doubt? 
28:02: What kept you going? 
28:03: A sense of community and a sense of humour.
28:06: So we had a lot of people from FDI who were doing the same thing that I did. 
28:10: And my joke is that we used to go for so many meetings and auditions 
28:16: and we rejected constantly. 28:19: But fortunately, when you came back home, 
28:20: you had five other people who faced similar rejections.
28:24: So you didn't feel alone. 
28:25: Alright, just five rapid fire questions before we say bye-bye. 
28:34: One role you wish you had played? 
28:38: You mean existing? 
28:39: Existing or past? 
28:42: No, one role that I want to play is Amrita Britam in a biopic.
28:46: The role that I want to play is everything that Cate Blanchett has ever done. 
28:51: Especially Tar in Blue Jasmine. 
28:53: A character of yours you'd like to be friends with in real life? 
28:58: I think Neeti Singh is an extension of me.
29:00: So I'm already friends with her. 
29:02: Bina Tripathi would be somebody who would be fun to have as a friend 
29:07: because you never know what she'll do. 
29:09: If not acting, what would you be doing today? 
29:13: I have no skill for it, but I would love to be a singer.
29:16: Total admiration for singers. 
29:19: One belief that has shaped your journey the most? 
29:23: That you have to trust that you're building something which is beyond your vision. 
29:29: One mantra you come back to during tough times? 
29:33: Kisi ko mukammal jahan nahi milta, kabhi zameen kabhi aasama nahi milta.
29:37: That is truly something that I keep repeating to myself 
29:40: every time I lose a project or don't get something done. 
29:44: Rasika, you've helped us stay inspired, you've followed your purpose, 
29:48: you've dreamt and truly you are being all you can. 
29:54: And that really is the motto of our podcast.
29:57: Thank you for being so patient.